veit > juridisch

 #1  
21.10.2003, 00:39
top-post@not
Apparently the use of artificial inteligence and 'expert systems' for legal
questions has exploded in the last few years.

Reading the absurdly worded legislation which I (as a lay person) have
included below, makes me understand this.
Which wise man said "kill all the lawers" ?
Or should it be the legislators - who are mostly lawers ?

I'm asking for readers to direct me to newsgroups and mailing lists
which specialise in legal AI. Possibly emailed to:
easlab @ absamail 'dot' co 'dot' za

Thanks,

== Chris Glur.

The following exercise took me a lot of time and effort: given
A. the facts; B. the garbled legislation to arrive at C. the conclusion.

It would be interesting to 'enter' it into an existing 'ES-shell' and
observe the forward and backward chaining.

* A. the facts: ----------------
An appeal from a judgment in a civil proceedings at
Witwatersrand local division (hi-crt) is required.

* B. the garbled s.african legislation ( can you believe it ?!):-----------
20. Appeals to Supreme Court in general.

(1) An appeal from a judgment or order of the court of a provincial or
local division in any civil proceedings or against any judgment or order
of such a court given on appeal shall be heard by the appellate division
or a full court, as the case may be.
[Sub-s. (1) substituted by s. 20 (a) of Act No. 129 of 1993.]
Wording of Sections
(2) (a) If leave is granted under subsection (4)(b) to appeal against a
judgment or order, in any civil proceedings, of a court constituted
before a single judge, the court against whose judgment or order the
appeal is to be made or the appellate division, according to whether
leave is granted by that court or the appellate division, shall direct
that the appeal be heard by a full court, unless it is satisfied that the
questions of law and of fact and the other considerations involved in the
appeal are of such a nature that the appeal requires the attention of the
appellate division, in which case it shall be directed that the appeal be
heard by the appellate division.
[Para. (a) substituted by s. 20 (b) of Act No. 129 of 1993.]
Wording of Sections
(b) Any direction in terms of paragraph (a), by the court of a provincial
or local division, may be set aside by the appellate division on
application made to it by any interested party within 21 days, or such
longer period as may on good cause be allowed, after the direction was
given, and may be replaced by another direction in terms of paragraph (a).
[Para. (b) substituted by s. 20 (b) of Act No. 129 of 1993.]
Wording of Sections
(c) Any application to the appellate division under paragraph (b) shall
be submitted by petition addressed to the Chief Justice, and the
provisions of section 21(3)(b), (c) and (d) shall mutatis mutandis
apply in respect thereof.
(3) An appeal which is to be heard by a full court in terms of a
direction under subsection (2), shall be heard

(a) in the case of an appeal against a judgment or order of a
provincial
division, by the full court of the provincial division concerned;
(b) in the case of an appeal against a judgment or order of a local
division other than the Witwatersrand local division, by the full court
of the provincial division which exercises concurrent jurisdiction in the
area of jurisdiction of the local division concerned;
(c) in the case of an appeal against a judgment or order of the
Witwatersrand local division

(i) by the full court of the Transvaal provincial division, unless a
direction by the judge president of that provincial division under
subparagraph (ii) applies to it; or
(ii) by the full court of the said local division, if the said judge
president has so directed in the particular instance.
[Sub-s. (3) amended by s. 20 (c) of Act No. 129 of 1993.]
Wording of Sections
(4) No appeal shall lie against a judgment or order of the court of a
provincial or local division in any civil proceedings or against any
judgment or order of that court given on appeal to it except

(a) in the case of a judgment or order given in any civil
proceedings by
the full court of such a division on appeal to it in terms of subsection (3),
with the special leave of the appellate division;
(b) in any other case, with the leave of the court against whose
judgment
or order the appeal is to be made or, where such leave has been refused,
with the leave of the appellate division.
(5) (a) Any leave required in terms of subsection (4) for an appeal
against a judgment or order of a court given on appeal to it, may be
granted subject to such conditions as the court concerned or the
appellate division, according to whether leave is granted by that court
or the appellate division, may determine, and such conditions may include
a condition that the applicant shall pay the costs of the appeal.
(b) If such leave to appeal is granted in any civil proceedings, the
court granting the leave may order the applicant to find security for the
costs of the appeal in such an amount as the registrar may determine, and
may fix the time within which the security is to be found.
(c) If the leave to appeal required in terms of subsection (4)(b) has
been refused by the court of a provincial or local division but is
granted by the appellate division, the appellate division may vary any
order as to costs made by the court concerned in refusing leave.
(6) The power to grant leave to appeal as contemplated in this section

(a) shall not be limited by reason only of the value of the matter
in
dispute or the amount claimed or awarded in the suit or by reason only of
the fact that the matter in dispute is incapable of being valued in
money; and
(b) shall be subject to the provisions of any other law which
specifically limits it or specifically grants, limits or excludes any
right of appeal.

* C. my conclusion:------------------

If the judge who handed down the judgment agrees
then a full court appeal can be heard at:
Witwatersrand local division (the original location)
OR
Transvaal provincial division
depending on the judge president of Transvaal provincial division;
else [if the judge who handed down the judgment refuses]
one may apply to the appellate division.
 #2  
21.10.2003, 22:30
Barry Gold
<top-post@not> wrote:
>Which wise man said "kill all the lawers" ?
>Or should it be the legislators - who are mostly lawers ?


It was in "Henry VI" by William Shakespeare. The character who says
it, Dick the Butcher, wants to kill all the lawyers because they might
interfere with his (and his friends') plans to replace the rule of law
with their own personal tyranny.

See, for example,
[..]

I'm afraid lawyers are a necessary evil. Yes, they cost a lot of
money, and often they make things more complicated (especially
when they are also legislators). But without law, how would we ever
resolve disputes between people?

Would you prefer trial by combat, a la the mythic Old West where a
couple of gunfighters would draw down on each other? Do you think
you're a faster and better shot than everybody else? If you have to
hire a gunfighter to fight for you, expect to pay him at least as much
as you would a lawyer. Maybe more -- at least the lawyer doesn't put
his life on the line every time he goes to court.
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